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  Title	Robert Reich Thinks Democrats Are On the Brink of a New Era
  ID	28038269
  External ID	d5ec3a40e4a39a8c212e73c08556effa
  Author	The Intercept Briefing
  Published Date	Nov. 21, 2025, 5 a.m.
  Summary	Robert Reich speaks to The Intercept Briefing podcast about the economy and the state of Democratic Party politics under Trump.
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  URL	https://theintercept.com/2025/11/21/briefing-podcast-robert-reich
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  Content ID	35700288
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  Content	The Labor Department reported September jobs numbers on Thursday, showing employers added 119,000 jobs to the economy but also an increase in unemployment to 4.4 percent. 'The September report shows fairly good job growth, but every other report we have for October shows a slowdown,' says Robert Reich, the former secretary of labor under President Bill Clinton. 'Real wages — that is, wages adjusted for inflation — are going down for most people. The bottom 90 percent of Americans are in very bad shape,' says Reich. This week on The Intercept Briefing, host Akela Lacy speaks to the professor, author, and longtime commentator about the economy and the state of Democratic Party politics under Trump. 'The only people who are doing well, who are keeping the economy going through their purchases, are the top 10 percent, and they're basically doing well because they're the ones who own most of the shares of stock,' says Reich. 'What happens when and if the stock market implodes?' Reich has been beating the drum on poverty and inequality for decades. And while that message took some time to hit the mainstream, it seems to be hitting home now more than ever, but Democratic leadership continues to fall flat in conveying they understand the urgency of the economic hardships ordinary Americans face. The answer, Reich says, is new leadership. He is disappointed in Democrats who caved to Trump on the government shutdown. 'It's another example of the Democrats not having enough backbone,' Reich says. 'I think Chuck Schumer has to go. And Jeffries too.' He adds, 'I'm 79 years old. I have standing to speak about the fact that there is a time to move on. And I think that the Democratic leaders today should move on.' Listen to the full conversation of The Intercept Briefing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Akela Lacy: Welcome to The Intercept Briefing, I'm Akela Lacy. If you've been following politics coverage at The Intercept, you know we have a minor obsession with the battle over the soul of the Democratic Party. Our guest today may give us a run for our money. Robert Reich: People ask me every day, where the fuck are the Democrats? There are a handful leading the fight against Trump's regime. JB Pritzker: Come and get me. RR: But the party's leadership has been asleep at the wheel. AL: That's Robert Reich, secretary of labor under former President Bill Clinton and a professor, author, and commentator on capitalism and inequality. Reich has organized his life project around progressive policies: getting big money out of politics, strengthening unions, and taxing the rich. His new memoir, 'Coming Up Short,' walks through his life's work and the various bullies and boogeymen who crossed his path. Reich also has a new documentary, 'The Last Class,' which chronicles his final semester teaching at U.C. Berkeley about wealth and inequality. RR (in trailer): One of the best ways of learning is to discuss something with somebody who disagrees with you. Can I do what I love to do, as well as I should be doing it? The wealth is held by the richest 400 Americans. You get the picture? We have to all engage their curiosity. Democracy's not a spectator sport. It's active. AL: Reich hasn't been quiet about his criticisms for Democrats. He endorsed Bernie Sanders for president in 2016 and had harsh words for the new billionaire-financed Democratic think tank launched earlier this year by ex-staffers of Sen. John Fetterman. But he's also been a quintessential party insider: He wholeheartedly backed both Joe Biden and Kamala Harris in 2020 and 2024, though he's been open about where Biden fell short. Reich has been beating the drum on poverty and inequality for decades. And while that message took some time to hit the mainstream, it seems to be hitting home now more than ever. Voters are at the end of their ropes under an administration unabashed about its mission to enrich the world's elite — and itself — while terrorizing communities around the country. And while that frustration with Trump has been evident in Democrats' recent electoral wins, it still feels like Democratic leadership is failing, in so many ways, to meet the moment. So what has to happen for things to really change? What more has to break until something gives? Now, we'll delve into those questions and more with Robert Reich. Mr. Reich, welcome to the show. RR: Akela, thank you very much for having me. AL: Mr. Reich, you've argued that Democrats have lost the working class because they've catered to big money and corporations, and that the way to fix American democracy is to get big money out of the picture. Why do you think that has been so hard to do? RR: Because big money doesn't want big money to be out of the picture, Akela. It's pretty straightforward. It's a chicken and egg problem, and it's become a larger and larger problem. I saw it begin in the 1970s after the Powell memo to the Chamber of Commerce calling on big corporations to get involved in American politics. In terms of putting big money into American politics, I saw it in the '80s getting much worse when I was secretary of labor — it was really awful, I thought big money was taking over. But little did I know that the 21st century would be far, far worse. Well, it's worse than ever, but I think that in some ways, Trump is a consequence, a culmination of four decades, five decades of more and more corporate and big, wealthy money in American politics. AL: You mentioned the rise of Trump. He campaigned as a populist, but his policies have obviously favored the wealthy, including massive tax cuts. Why does that political contradiction work for him? 'What he's given the working class is people and institutions to hate.' RR: I think it worked for Donald Trump because he's a con man. He knows how to speak in the language of the working class, but appealing to the red meat — and I hate to say it — but bigotry side of the working class. That is, even though Trump has given the wealthy exactly what they want in terms of tax cuts and regulatory rollbacks and everything that can make them even wealthier — at the same time, what he's given the working class is people and institutions to hate. He's given them everything from transgender people to immigrants. His racism is pretty evident. It's a constant standard list of Trump negatives and Trump targets. I think it's important to understand both sides of this because this is not the first time in American history, nor is it the first time in world history, that a demagogue has given the rich exactly what they want in terms of more riches. And also used the power of bigotry to keep the working class in line. AL: Right, you talk about Pat Buchanan in your book, and there's plenty of other examples that we could go through, but I want to also touch on — in one of your latest Guardian columns, you argue that Trump's project will eventually collapse under the weight of its own hypocrisy. I would like to believe that. I'm not sure that's being borne out right now. Do you? RR: Trump's project is going to collapse under the weight of its own hypocrisy. Look at the polls. He's doing worse and worse even among his core, even among his base. And we're talking about men, white men, straight white men who are non-college graduates. His ratings keep going. His favorabilitys keep dropping. And when all the polls are showing the same trend, you have to start believing that's the case. Also the Democrats, frankly, have not got their act together. They really do need to start attacking big corporations for raising prices and for monopolizing. They've got to start talking about the super wealthy and the absurdities of how much power the super wealthy have in our political system. Elon Musk is exhibit number A. There are many, many exhibits. And every time all of these tech CEOs get together at the White House with Trump, we need Democrats to be pointing this out and to have a very clear message that they represent the alternative to corporate capitalism. 'We need Democrats to be pointing this out and to have a very clear message that they represent the alternative to corporate capitalism.' AL: We're touching a little bit on this battle over the working class. You've said that Biden didn't communicate his efforts to help the working class effectively. What is the effective way to communicate that, and what is, to your last point, the effective way to point out this catering to the elite of the elite from the Republican side? RR: The effective way was, is to say it. To Biden's credit, he did walk a picket line. He did appoint some very good people, like Lina Khan at the Federal Trade Commission. He was a trust-buster. But he didn't really talk about monopolization all that much. He didn't really talk about corporate power. You need a Democrat, a leader of the Democrats, who really appears to be a fighter and makes it very clear what they're fighting against. Akela Lacy: Switching gears a little bit to the exciting election season that we're in. You've made several endorsements this year in key races: Zohran Mamdani in New York, Graham Platner in Maine, and Dan Osborne in Nebraska. What did you see in those candidates that led you to endorse them? RR: We have in the Democratic Party — most of these are Democrats, are young people, who are saying the truth. They're talking about the economy and our society in terms of power and the misallocation of power. They're not depending on big corporate contributions for their campaigns. I think this is the future of the Democratic Party, if the Democratic Party has a future. It's certainly the future of trying to get people, everybody in the bottom 90 percent of America who are struggling, together. AL: What was your reaction to the reporting on Graham Platner's internet history, his tattoo, and the fallout in his campaign? RR: I wasn't happy about that. I know people in Maine who tell me that on the ground he's doing very, very well. He's making all of the right moves. But he also is communicating to people in ways that Mamdani has done in New York City and others are doing around the country. I guess I have to throw up my hands and say the people of Maine are going to decide. AL: You wrote a new book recently. In 'Coming Up Short,' You talk about your life project having to explain why it's so important to 'reverse the staggering inequalities and legalize bribery that characterize today's America.' For people who haven't read the book, can you give us a preview of the reasons why those efforts by yourself and others have, in your words, come up short? RR: It's very difficult for America to face a fundamental flaw in American capitalism. And that has to do with the power of wealth and corporate power. And I have spent much of the last 40, 50 years trying to not only educate people and teach people in classrooms and with my books and other efforts, but also when I have been in Washington serving the public directly fighting this kind of corporate power. I've done everything I can do, but I'm sure there's much more. I'm still fighting. I'm still young. AL: Can you say more about why you think the larger project has not succeeded? RR: I think the long-term project has not succeeded because you've got a larger and larger group of Americans who are angry, frustrated, and basically cynical. That group of people, unless the Democrats or some other party reaches out to them in a positive way and says, 'Look, the answer to your problems, it's not bigotry against immigrants or bigotry against transgender people or bigotry against Black people or bigotry against foreigners. The answer to your problem is really to look at the corporate elites and Wall Street and the richest people in this country, and understand that they have abused their wealth and power — and continue to abuse their wealth and power.' Now, it's a very difficult message to get through because the working poor and the working middle class as a group continue to grow and continue to slide. And the Democrats have not made this case. If they do make it, when they do make it, I think we're going to see some fundamental changes politically. But until they do, we're gonna see the Trump triumph that we have seen up until now. AL: You mentioned Democrats or some other party reaching out to people who feel cynical and removed from the process. Do you see an opening for that in the next several cycles? This has been a topic for forever, but even the most popular independent ran as a Democrat. That seems to be the institutional path of progressives right now, is still to be encouraging people to stick with Democrats. What do you see happening there? RR: I think it's very hard to form a third party for all the obvious reasons, when you have a winner-take-all system in the United States as we do have. So I'm hoping that the' takeover' occurs in the Democratic Party. That forces like Bernie Sanders, AOC, Zohran Mamdani — others who are young and who understand the necessity of speaking in the terms I'm speaking right now to you — will take over the Democratic Party, and their success in winning over the working class from the Republicans will be enough to generate its own positive outcomes. Once in politics, you actually begin a process of winning over voters, it's not all that hard to get others to join you in winning over those voters politically. And the problem the Democrats have had — And, look, I've been a Democrat for a very long time. And I've been frustrated for a very long time. I mean, in the Clinton administration, I can't tell you the number of times that I tried to push against the neoliberal facade that was gaining even more and more power as I was labor secretary. It was very difficult. AL: You've said that inequality hurts everyone, not just the poor. And as you've noted, there are signs that that message is starting to resonate with more people, with recent results of elections to Trump's open alignment with wealthy interests. You've been warning about this for 30 years. Do you think this message is starting to resonate with more people? And if not, why hasn't it broken through or why is it breaking through more now, particularly with, as we've talked about Mamdani, etc. RR: It is beginning to get through. And part of the reason is Donald Trump. Because people see the logical consequence of the alternative that is Trump, that is fascism, neo-fascism. It's an administration that is cruel that represents the opposite of what America actually has told itself we represent. And I think that there are many people who in leadership positions who feel trapped right now. I've talked to them. People who feel that they've got to play along with Trump, they don't dare cross him because they know how vindictive he can be. But they are themselves learning a very important lesson: that if you completely neglect the working class and the working middle class and the poor, you are begging for eventually a demagogue like Trump to come along and plunge the entire country into this authoritarian nightmare. [Break] AL: Going back to your comments on pressuring Democrats on neoliberal expansion. There's an argument to be made that there's a direct through line between NAFTA — the North American Free Trade Agreement which went into effect in 1994, eliminated most tariffs between the U.S, Canada and Mexico — between NAFTA and the rise of Trump. A lot of American manufacturing jobs moved to Mexico because of that agreement, and many of those people are part of the MAGA base. This happened during the Clinton administration, and you wrote in the book that you were worried that American workers would 'get shafted.' How do you look back on that 30 years later, and do you wish you had done more to fight it? RR: I wish I had done more to fight it, Akela. Not just NAFTA, but also Chinese accession to the World Trade Organization, also deregulation of Wall Street, which led almost directly to the 2008 Wall Street crash. And at the same time the decision to get rid of welfare and not substitute anything that was really helpful to most Americans. I mean, I am proud of certain things that we accomplished. I fought very hard to increase the minimum wage. We did it, even though the Republicans at that time were in control of both houses of Congress. I'm glad that we expanded something called the Earned Income Tax Credit, which has become the largest anti-poverty program in America. But we didn't do nearly enough. And the things that unfortunately I fought against have proven to be, as you suggested, the foundation stones of many of the problems we now have. AL: I want to ask about your new documentary. It's out now, called 'The Last Class.' It's about teaching at UC Berkeley. I'm curious about your experience all of these years as a professor and increasing threats to academic freedom. These threats have taken many shapes, but it includes a long history of smearing professors as antisemitic if they talk about Palestine, to now the Trump administration weaponizing that project to a whole new level, merging it with attacks on migrants and policing nonprofits, treating free speech as terrorism. The list goes on and on. What are your thoughts on how this has accelerated under Trump? RR: Like everything else, it's now out in the open. It starts under Ronald Reagan. Actually, it starts under Nixon. This kind of a negative fear of the so-called intellectual class, the notion that universities are plotting against America. And the Republicans have built this case because they do view universities — justifiably — as hotbeds of thought, of criticism of ideology that they don't like. But Trump, again, one of the benefits, I'm going put that in quotes, 'the benefits' of the Trump administration is, it's now visible, it's obvious. JD Vance says universities are the enemy. Donald Trump wants, it's not just, it's — DEI is a pretext and we know that. We know that antisemitism, the charges of antisemitism are a pretext for the Trump administration to come in and to restrict academic freedom. I think that they met their match at Harvard, I hope. But remember, this is all a process of public education. What I hear, what I see, what the polls are showing, what my conversations with many conservatives are showing, is that many people are saying, 'Wow, I didn't really understand 10 or 15 or 20 years ago, what this conservative assault on universities really was all about. I now see it.' 'DEI is a pretext and we know that. We know that antisemitism, the charges of antisemitism are a pretext for the Trump administration to come in and to restrict academic freedom.' AL: We have to ask. Everyone is talking about the Epstein files, which have become a pressure cooker of sorts for Trump over the last weeks and months. A few questions here: In retrospect, did Senate Democrats caving to Republican budget negotiations actually end up intensifying that pressure? RR: Yeah, I was very disappointed in the Senate Democrats and one Independent who, I've used the word 'caved.' They did cave to the Republicans. The thing to keep in mind is that they had some bargaining leverage. The Democrats have not had any bargaining leverage for 10 months. Finally, they have some bargaining leverage to get the Republicans to agree with them to reinstate the subsidies for Obamacare. Without those subsidies health care premiums are going to skyrocket for millions of Americans. Well, they had that bargaining leverage and they gave it up at a time, incidentally, when most Americans were blaming the Republicans for the shutdown and also the pressures. I mean, look at the air traffic controllers, the delays of flights — the pressures were growing so intense that the Republicans, including Trump, had to come around. So I just think it's another example of the Democrats not having enough backbone. AL: On that note, there's a primary challenger who is now running against Rep. Hakeem Jeffries. There's been calls from candidates who are running in the upcoming election to primary Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer. Where do you stand on those calls? RR: Well, I said I think Chuck Schumer has to go. And Jeffries too. We are on the, hopefully, brink of a new era with regard to Democratic, capital-D politics. And we have a lot of young people, a lot of very exciting, a lot of very progressive young people around the country. And these older people — I could speak as an older person, all right? I'm 79 years old. I have standing to speak about the fact that there is a time to move on. And I think that the Democratic leaders today should move on. AL: I wanted to ask about that, when we were on topic, but the second Epstein question that I have is: The document dump from the House Oversight Committee has revealed new details about Epstein's associates from Trump to Bill Clinton, your former boss. What are your thoughts on how that scandal has unfolded and taken hold on the right, and what do you make of the Clinton association? RR: I don't know about Bill Clinton's role. We don't know. There have not been evidence yet. But I think that what may be being lost in this whole Epstein scandal is really what has happened to the victims of Epstein and these other men. Let's be clear. This is about human rights. It's about trafficking of children in ways that are so fundamentally wrong. This is an issue that I agree with a lot of MAGA types on. You don't want to tolerate this kind of behavior in not just the elites of America, but anyone. And I want to just make sure we focus on what happened and how horrible that was. And it's still going on, not with Epstein, obviously. But men are harassing and bullying and raping women. And men have, who have positions of power and money in our society — Again, the Trump era is revealing a lot and a lot that's very ugly about America. Hopefully we will learn our lessons. 'The Trump era is revealing a lot that's very ugly about America.' AL: We want to get your thoughts on a few news developments briefly before we go. The delayed jobs report numbers from September came out showing a growth in hiring, but an uptick in the unemployment rate. What do those indicators say about where the labor market is right now? RR: As far as I can tell — now, we don't have a complete picture of the labor market because of the shutdown. But as far as I can tell, job growth is very, very slow. The September report shows fairly good job growth, but every other report we have for October shows a slowdown. A lot of private employers, understandably, don't know about the future. They're feeling uncertain about where the economy is going, so they're not going to hire. We also know that real wages — that is, wages adjusted for inflation — are going down for most people. The bottom 90 percent of Americans are in very bad shape right now. The only people who are doing well, who are keeping the economy going through their purchases, are the top 10 percent. And they're basically doing well because they're the ones who own most of the shares of stock — 92 percent of the shares of stock — and the stock market is doing well. What happens when and if the stock market implodes? I don't like what's happened, with regard to, for example, artificial intelligence, AI stocks, which I think will be shown to be a huge bubble. And we can see a bubble also in other areas of the stock market. It's kind of a dangerous economic terrain. AL: Why do you think AI stocks will prove to be a bubble? RR: Because the amounts that are being invested in AI now, and the amount of debt that AI companies, Big Tech companies are going into in order to make those investments are really way beyond the possible returns. Now, I grant you, Nvidia did extremely well. But Nvidia's kind of an outlier. I mean, look at what the expenditures — if you take out all of the investments from AI from the stock market and from related parts of the economy, there's nothing really happening in the American economy right now. That's where the action is. But of course, everybody wants to be the winner. Not everybody's gonna be the winner. AL: Speaking of the stock market, there is bipartisan pressure on speaker Mike Johnson to advance a congressional ban on buying stocks. What are your thoughts on that? RR: Oh, that's way overdue. Members of Congress should not be buying individual stocks. They can get an index. They should be required — if they want to, if they have savings, if they want to be in the stock market — get an index that is just an index of the entire stock market. It's actually inexcusable for individual members of Congress to be making stock trades because they have so much inside information. 'It's actually inexcusable for individual members of Congress to be making stock trades because they have so much inside information.' AL: This is making me think of the fact that Nancy Pelosi, who has faced a lot of criticism over congressional stock trading, is retiring. We interviewed one of the candidates running to replace her, Saikat Chakrabarti. I'm wondering if you're following that race, but also what other races you're following right now, and if you're looking to make endorsements in other races we should have on our radar. RR: Look, Akela, I endorse when I'm very excited about a candidate. Nobody cares about my endorsement. I mean, I'm a former secretary of labor. But yes, as we talked about, I do think that there's some up and comers. And if I can help in any way, I certainly will. I think Nancy Pelosi, I just want to say something about her because I have not always agreed with everything she did, but I think she did some very, very important and good things. She got Barack Obama to focus on the Affordable Care Act, to pass the Affordable Care Act. That was a big deal. You look at recent congressional history, and she stands out as the most important leader that we have had. Akela Lacy: We're going to leave it there. Thank you for joining me on the Intercept Briefing. RR: Akela, thank you very much for having me. Akela Lacy: That does it for this episode. In the meantime, though, what do you want to see more coverage of? Are you taking political action? Are there organizing efforts in your community you want to shout out? Shoot us an email at podcasts@theintercept.com. Or leave us a voice mail at 530-POD-CAST. That's 530-763-2278. This episode was produced by Laura Flynn. Sumi Aggarwal is our executive producer. Ben Muessig is our editor-in-chief. Chelsey B. Coombs is our social and video producer. Desiree Adib is our booking producer. Fei Liu is our product and design manager. Nara Shin is our copy editor. Will Stanton mixed our show. Legal review by David Bralow. Slip Stream provided our theme music. If you want to support our work, you can go to theintercept.com/join. Your donation, no matter the amount, makes a real difference. If you haven't already, please subscribe to The Intercept Briefing wherever you listen to podcasts. And leave us a rating or a review, it helps other listeners to find us. Until next time, I'm Akela Lacy.
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